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	<title>Comments on: THF On Vacation Open Thread</title>
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		<title>By: william</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13583</link>
		<dc:creator>william</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13583</guid>
		<description>DeanForever, thanks for your article and comments.

I would say that the 1999 Blue Devils were probably the greatest team since the installation of the three point shot and the shot clock.  Pomeroy has them rated far above any other team during the seasons that he has kept records (1999 was his first year), including the 2001 Blue Devils and the 2005 Tar Heels.  The 1999 Duke team beat UNC by 12, 20, and 13 points in three games.

The only reason why I did not mention them, and the 1996 Kentucky team, too, is that both squads lost almost right off the bat and therefore, as great as they were, had no chance to go undefeated.  

I don&#039;t have their game by game records and I may be wrong since I was only a child at the time, but the 1973 Bruins were probably the standard for the title winner that had no real competition.  Indiana had some tough games during its title run in 1976, particularly during its unbalanced Mid East regional, which had several top ten teams and the number one and two teams in the country in Indiana and Marquette.  UNLV in 1991 had at least two teams that could play with it, Arkansas and Duke.

The 1973 Bruins had no rivals--at least not with undefeated NC State on probation and I doubt that State&#039;s sophomore-laden team would have been ready for them yet anyway.  Maryland was just a notch below State in the ACC that year and flamed out early in the NCAA tournament.  The closest anyone came to UCLA in 1973 was 6 points, which was actually a rather healthy margin in the days before the three-pointer.  Twenty-three of their 26 victories were by ten points or more.

UCLA&#039;s talent was amazing that year as they were in the midst of an 88 game winning streak.  UCLA had Bill Walton, Swen Nater, David Meyers, Keith (Jamal Wilkes), Greg Lee and Tommy Curtis. Both Wilkes and Nater would go on to be Rookie of the Year in their respective leagues, the NBA and the ABA.  Walton would go on to win the MVP in the NBA and two titles.  Meyers didn&#039;t do that much in the NBA, but was an All American in college.

They were smart, too, with Walton, Wilkes and Lee all earning NCAA Academic All American status.

The tournament had byes then so a top seeded team only had to win four games, but UCLA won its four games by 17, 15, and then in the Final Four, against Indiana by 11, and then against Memphis State by 21 in the Final, an average margin of 16 points in the tournament back when a 16-point lead was more like 25 points without a shot clock or three-pointer.  (UCLA never stalled anyway, which is to a large degree why they lost to NC State the following year, but that is a different story.)

On other thing that we should not forget is that college teams played approximately one quarter fewer games back then.  UCLA never won more than 30 games in a single season.  The record for most wins in a season without defeat is shared by Indiana in 1976 and UNC in 1957.  

Thus, Duke preserved Carolina&#039;s record by upsetting UNLV in 1991.  Thanks, Coach K!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DeanForever, thanks for your article and comments.</p>
<p>I would say that the 1999 Blue Devils were probably the greatest team since the installation of the three point shot and the shot clock.  Pomeroy has them rated far above any other team during the seasons that he has kept records (1999 was his first year), including the 2001 Blue Devils and the 2005 Tar Heels.  The 1999 Duke team beat UNC by 12, 20, and 13 points in three games.</p>
<p>The only reason why I did not mention them, and the 1996 Kentucky team, too, is that both squads lost almost right off the bat and therefore, as great as they were, had no chance to go undefeated.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have their game by game records and I may be wrong since I was only a child at the time, but the 1973 Bruins were probably the standard for the title winner that had no real competition.  Indiana had some tough games during its title run in 1976, particularly during its unbalanced Mid East regional, which had several top ten teams and the number one and two teams in the country in Indiana and Marquette.  UNLV in 1991 had at least two teams that could play with it, Arkansas and Duke.</p>
<p>The 1973 Bruins had no rivals&#8211;at least not with undefeated NC State on probation and I doubt that State&#8217;s sophomore-laden team would have been ready for them yet anyway.  Maryland was just a notch below State in the ACC that year and flamed out early in the NCAA tournament.  The closest anyone came to UCLA in 1973 was 6 points, which was actually a rather healthy margin in the days before the three-pointer.  Twenty-three of their 26 victories were by ten points or more.</p>
<p>UCLA&#8217;s talent was amazing that year as they were in the midst of an 88 game winning streak.  UCLA had Bill Walton, Swen Nater, David Meyers, Keith (Jamal Wilkes), Greg Lee and Tommy Curtis. Both Wilkes and Nater would go on to be Rookie of the Year in their respective leagues, the NBA and the ABA.  Walton would go on to win the MVP in the NBA and two titles.  Meyers didn&#8217;t do that much in the NBA, but was an All American in college.</p>
<p>They were smart, too, with Walton, Wilkes and Lee all earning NCAA Academic All American status.</p>
<p>The tournament had byes then so a top seeded team only had to win four games, but UCLA won its four games by 17, 15, and then in the Final Four, against Indiana by 11, and then against Memphis State by 21 in the Final, an average margin of 16 points in the tournament back when a 16-point lead was more like 25 points without a shot clock or three-pointer.  (UCLA never stalled anyway, which is to a large degree why they lost to NC State the following year, but that is a different story.)</p>
<p>On other thing that we should not forget is that college teams played approximately one quarter fewer games back then.  UCLA never won more than 30 games in a single season.  The record for most wins in a season without defeat is shared by Indiana in 1976 and UNC in 1957.  </p>
<p>Thus, Duke preserved Carolina&#8217;s record by upsetting UNLV in 1991.  Thanks, Coach K!</p>
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		<title>By: C. Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13563</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 11:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13563</guid>
		<description>To be fair, the,&quot;Duke hasn’t played succeptible to an upset so far this season,&quot; quote was from the AP, and can&#039;t be attributed to ESPN.  That being said, it is easy to understand where the confusion came from!! ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair, the,&#8221;Duke hasn’t played succeptible to an upset so far this season,&#8221; quote was from the AP, and can&#8217;t be attributed to ESPN.  That being said, it is easy to understand where the confusion came from!! <img src='http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JBowling</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13559</link>
		<dc:creator>JBowling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 05:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13559</guid>
		<description>Nice posts Dean Forever. Most everyone on this site has informative things to say and articulates them much better than our foes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice posts Dean Forever. Most everyone on this site has informative things to say and articulates them much better than our foes.</p>
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		<title>By: Silent Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13558</link>
		<dc:creator>Silent Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 05:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13558</guid>
		<description>1. I see VPI &amp; BC &quot;packed&quot; 53,927 into Raymond James Stadium.
2. If the Heels play in the Meineke Car Care Bowl in Charlotte as expected I plan to be there. (note to myself - some of the bowls sure do have goofy names)
3. IMO it was great to see the Gators beat up on the Crimson Tide this afternoon.
4. Let&#039;s hear it for the Lady Soccer Tar Heels! Go Heels! Beat N.D.!

Apologies for being so prolix . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. I see VPI &amp; BC &#8220;packed&#8221; 53,927 into Raymond James Stadium.<br />
2. If the Heels play in the Meineke Car Care Bowl in Charlotte as expected I plan to be there. (note to myself &#8211; some of the bowls sure do have goofy names)<br />
3. IMO it was great to see the Gators beat up on the Crimson Tide this afternoon.<br />
4. Let&#8217;s hear it for the Lady Soccer Tar Heels! Go Heels! Beat N.D.!</p>
<p>Apologies for being so prolix . . .</p>
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		<title>By: DeanForever</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13557</link>
		<dc:creator>DeanForever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 04:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13557</guid>
		<description>Finally, all comparisons aside, I struggle to find a team with as much talent, per-position, as this year&#039;s Heels.  A fair comparison would probably be &#039;99 Duke.

PG: Will Avery vs. Ty Lawson
SG: Trajan Langdon vs. Wayne Ellington
Wing: Chris Carawell/Corey Magette vs. Danny Green/Marcus Ginyard
F: Shane Battier vs. Deon Thompson
F/C: Elton Brand vs. Tyler Hansbrough

The victors?

PG: Lawson over Avery.
SG: For as much as we knock Wayne for being to one-dimensional on offense, Langdon WAS a straight shooter.  He was the classic example of the Coach K hipocracy.  All of that &quot;I don&#039;t believe in the 1,2,3,4, and 5&quot; BS.  Another swipe at Dean that the media loved in the day, but K does nothing BUT isolate players to certian skill sets, if not positions.  For immediate reference, look up wither Shavlik Randolph or Josh McRoberts.  Langdon came to Duke with a decent all-around offense (see the UNC-Duke 1995 classic at Cameron), but he left as just another Steve Alford.  While Wayne is not, and simply will not be another Vince Carter, or even Rashad McCants, he IS more multi-faceted than Langdon was.
Ellington over Langdon.
Wing:  Toss-up.  Carrawell was very much a media-endorsed star in college.  Maggette was an abnomily in the Duke program.  He is only beloved in Duke circles whe Dook Dorks make the case of Duke successes at the NBA level.  Coach K underplayed him big time, and it cost him a national title.  Carrawell was very good in the K system.  Green has been vastly underrated while at UNC, while Ginyard has been the quintessential team player; specifically, sacrificing offensive prowess to be a shut-down defender.  In this case, seniority rules, though the Duke duo were very, very good.
Green/Ginyard over Carrawell/Maggette.
F: Battier over Thompson.  Mmm-hmmm.  Battier could take the defender outside and he was a much better defender.  The guy played on teams that won 133 games over four years.  He was clutch and coachable.  Geesh, do I ever sound like Dookie V?

F/C:  Brand vs. Hansbrough.  Oh boy.  It&#039;s bedtime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally, all comparisons aside, I struggle to find a team with as much talent, per-position, as this year&#8217;s Heels.  A fair comparison would probably be &#8216;99 Duke.</p>
<p>PG: Will Avery vs. Ty Lawson<br />
SG: Trajan Langdon vs. Wayne Ellington<br />
Wing: Chris Carawell/Corey Magette vs. Danny Green/Marcus Ginyard<br />
F: Shane Battier vs. Deon Thompson<br />
F/C: Elton Brand vs. Tyler Hansbrough</p>
<p>The victors?</p>
<p>PG: Lawson over Avery.<br />
SG: For as much as we knock Wayne for being to one-dimensional on offense, Langdon WAS a straight shooter.  He was the classic example of the Coach K hipocracy.  All of that &#8220;I don&#8217;t believe in the 1,2,3,4, and 5&#8243; BS.  Another swipe at Dean that the media loved in the day, but K does nothing BUT isolate players to certian skill sets, if not positions.  For immediate reference, look up wither Shavlik Randolph or Josh McRoberts.  Langdon came to Duke with a decent all-around offense (see the UNC-Duke 1995 classic at Cameron), but he left as just another Steve Alford.  While Wayne is not, and simply will not be another Vince Carter, or even Rashad McCants, he IS more multi-faceted than Langdon was.<br />
Ellington over Langdon.<br />
Wing:  Toss-up.  Carrawell was very much a media-endorsed star in college.  Maggette was an abnomily in the Duke program.  He is only beloved in Duke circles whe Dook Dorks make the case of Duke successes at the NBA level.  Coach K underplayed him big time, and it cost him a national title.  Carrawell was very good in the K system.  Green has been vastly underrated while at UNC, while Ginyard has been the quintessential team player; specifically, sacrificing offensive prowess to be a shut-down defender.  In this case, seniority rules, though the Duke duo were very, very good.<br />
Green/Ginyard over Carrawell/Maggette.<br />
F: Battier over Thompson.  Mmm-hmmm.  Battier could take the defender outside and he was a much better defender.  The guy played on teams that won 133 games over four years.  He was clutch and coachable.  Geesh, do I ever sound like Dookie V?</p>
<p>F/C:  Brand vs. Hansbrough.  Oh boy.  It&#8217;s bedtime.</p>
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		<title>By: DeanForever</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13556</link>
		<dc:creator>DeanForever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 03:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13556</guid>
		<description>William-

Excellent comparisons between this year&#039;s Heels and previous teams who were favored to win it all, if not run the table.  Here are a couple of other teams that I would put in the same class as the &#039;09 Heels, in terms of talent disparity and skill level.

1996 Kentucky Wildcats.  This team actually had two teams that could have been ranked in the to-25. They were Coach Pitino&#039;s perfect beast.  An early loss to #1-calibre UMASS and SEC tourny loss to Final Four-calibre Mississippi State are quality losses.

1999 Duke Blue Devils.  Ahhhh, the one Duke team that is a bit harder to hate like all the rest.  Why?  Because they were bad-ass.  You knew that Coach K was not getting the same player-to-coach love from the likes of Will Avery and Corey Magette like he was with his beloved Laettner, Ferry, Hill, and Hurley prototypes.  This team was as deep 1-6 as any team that I have seen.  Their season was bookended by last-second losses to top-10 teams.  In between they simply destroyed their opponents.  

2007 Florida Gators.  I think that this team would have given the &#039;05 Heels a run for their money.  They simply were a great TEAM, with everyone excelling at his specific role.  They weren&#039;t the quickest, and they played good defense in stretches, but they weren&#039;t overwhelming.

Isn&#039;t it strange how there have been so many more &quot;dominant teams&quot; who have not won it all?  &#039;91 UNLV, &#039;98 UNC, &#039;93 UK, &#039;88 Oklahoma, &#039;85 Georgetown, &#039;99 Duke, &#039;83 Virginia, &#039;81 DePaul, &#039;75 Indiana, and all of the injury-riddled UNC teams that were struck down by bodily harm more so than the opponents skill (i.e., &#039;77, &#039;84, &#039;87, &#039;95).  1998 and 2008 were simply the best teams that played their worst games in the Final Four.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William-</p>
<p>Excellent comparisons between this year&#8217;s Heels and previous teams who were favored to win it all, if not run the table.  Here are a couple of other teams that I would put in the same class as the &#8216;09 Heels, in terms of talent disparity and skill level.</p>
<p>1996 Kentucky Wildcats.  This team actually had two teams that could have been ranked in the to-25. They were Coach Pitino&#8217;s perfect beast.  An early loss to #1-calibre UMASS and SEC tourny loss to Final Four-calibre Mississippi State are quality losses.</p>
<p>1999 Duke Blue Devils.  Ahhhh, the one Duke team that is a bit harder to hate like all the rest.  Why?  Because they were bad-ass.  You knew that Coach K was not getting the same player-to-coach love from the likes of Will Avery and Corey Magette like he was with his beloved Laettner, Ferry, Hill, and Hurley prototypes.  This team was as deep 1-6 as any team that I have seen.  Their season was bookended by last-second losses to top-10 teams.  In between they simply destroyed their opponents.  </p>
<p>2007 Florida Gators.  I think that this team would have given the &#8216;05 Heels a run for their money.  They simply were a great TEAM, with everyone excelling at his specific role.  They weren&#8217;t the quickest, and they played good defense in stretches, but they weren&#8217;t overwhelming.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it strange how there have been so many more &#8220;dominant teams&#8221; who have not won it all?  &#8216;91 UNLV, &#8216;98 UNC, &#8216;93 UK, &#8216;88 Oklahoma, &#8216;85 Georgetown, &#8216;99 Duke, &#8216;83 Virginia, &#8216;81 DePaul, &#8216;75 Indiana, and all of the injury-riddled UNC teams that were struck down by bodily harm more so than the opponents skill (i.e., &#8216;77, &#8216;84, &#8216;87, &#8216;95).  1998 and 2008 were simply the best teams that played their worst games in the Final Four.</p>
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		<title>By: DeanForever</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13555</link>
		<dc:creator>DeanForever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 03:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13555</guid>
		<description>Josh-

This has been, BY FAR, the worst year of ESPN&#039;s infatuation with Coach K.  That is saying a lot, but it is painfully true.  At least in year&#039;s past, the product may have warranted the attention, but this year they are simply a mid-top 25 team with no inside presence.  I truly believe that Pat Forde&#039;s article was some sort of a &quot;kiss-and-make-up&quot; piece since he denounce the Duke program post-Henderson cheap shot in &#039;07.  Maybe the execs at ESPN pressured him to lavish undue praise on the Dorks, who knows?  It has gotten out of hand.  If you click on ESPN&#039;s home page post-Duke&#039;s meaningless win over a decent Big Ten opponent, there is a pic of that incredibly odd-looking Kyle Singler dribbling between two flat-footed Boilermakers.  However, it is that type of coverage that just makes people hate Dook that much more, and discredits ESPN in the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh-</p>
<p>This has been, BY FAR, the worst year of ESPN&#8217;s infatuation with Coach K.  That is saying a lot, but it is painfully true.  At least in year&#8217;s past, the product may have warranted the attention, but this year they are simply a mid-top 25 team with no inside presence.  I truly believe that Pat Forde&#8217;s article was some sort of a &#8220;kiss-and-make-up&#8221; piece since he denounce the Duke program post-Henderson cheap shot in &#8216;07.  Maybe the execs at ESPN pressured him to lavish undue praise on the Dorks, who knows?  It has gotten out of hand.  If you click on ESPN&#8217;s home page post-Duke&#8217;s meaningless win over a decent Big Ten opponent, there is a pic of that incredibly odd-looking Kyle Singler dribbling between two flat-footed Boilermakers.  However, it is that type of coverage that just makes people hate Dook that much more, and discredits ESPN in the process.</p>
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		<title>By: JBowling</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13554</link>
		<dc:creator>JBowling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 02:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13554</guid>
		<description>Take a look at ESPN&#039;s commentary on the Duke/Michigan game. The writer said Duke hasn&#039;t played succeptible to an upset so far this season. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! ???

You might want to check the final score of the Rhode Island vs Duke in Cameron. Are these guys in the bag for Duke or what?!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Take a look at ESPN&#8217;s commentary on the Duke/Michigan game. The writer said Duke hasn&#8217;t played succeptible to an upset so far this season. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! ???</p>
<p>You might want to check the final score of the Rhode Island vs Duke in Cameron. Are these guys in the bag for Duke or what?!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: C. Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13553</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13553</guid>
		<description>Michigan might be a year away, but Belein can flat out coach. 

william&#039;s point about the &quot;situation&quot; is critical.  I don&#039;t think anyone is saying that this is the &quot;best&quot; team ever, but it may be the biggest gap in talent ever. To have a team that is filled with McD All-American&#039;s, who are both upperclassman AND accomplished, in the day of early entries is is really unique.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michigan might be a year away, but Belein can flat out coach. </p>
<p>william&#8217;s point about the &#8220;situation&#8221; is critical.  I don&#8217;t think anyone is saying that this is the &#8220;best&#8221; team ever, but it may be the biggest gap in talent ever. To have a team that is filled with McD All-American&#8217;s, who are both upperclassman AND accomplished, in the day of early entries is is really unique.</p>
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		<title>By: william</title>
		<link>http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/2008/11/thf-on-vacation-open-thread-2/comment-page-2/#comment-13551</link>
		<dc:creator>william</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tarheelfanblog.com/?p=2653#comment-13551</guid>
		<description>Maybe Michigan could be UNC.  They&#039;ve already taken out Duke and UCLA?  Nah....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe Michigan could be UNC.  They&#8217;ve already taken out Duke and UCLA?  Nah&#8230;.</p>
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