What you are about to read is called stirring the pot and Josh Hailey at WRAL Fankind(no link for obvious reasons) basically shovels a bunch of manure onto the page then watches as the kids come along and play in it. It is traffic bait which Hailey readily admits up front with the classic “I know people are going to hate me for this” disclaimer which really means “I know people are going to hate me and that is exactly why I am writing it.” Anyway, something like this requires a piece by piece dismantling and I feel obligated to provide it.
Hailey starts out by saying that last season when Marcus Ginyard got injured it was a benefit to UNC since it allowed the more offensive minded Danny Green on the court and UNC would be better off having another weapon on the floor. I won’t argue with that too much. On one hand, yes UNC was near impossible to stop when everyone was hitting. On the other hand, UNC got lit up by players Ginyard might have been able to stop the likes of Greivis Vasquez and Jeff Teague. At the end of the day UNC figured out how to play defense when it counted so you can argue that Ginyard was not really missed. Then Hailey drives the bus right off the cliff.
So here we are a year later and Ginyard is back. The senior is a tremendous leader off the court, but he has always been touted as a defensive stopper. Well six games into the season I still don’t see it.
With only four games against true competition the opposing players top perimeter player has gone off against the Tar Heels. Brandon Wood of Valpo went for 30, Evan Turner of Ohio State 23 points, Wesley Johnson had 25 for Syracuse, and here is the capper, little Grayson Flittner who came in averaging just 7 points per game went for 32 and tied the Smith Center record with nine three pointers. These are not the kind of performances you would expect against a fifth year senior defensive stopper.
Well first of all, it has only been six games which is a really difficult point to drop an opinion like this. And mind you it is all opinion because things like box scores and numbers often get in the way of a good rabble rousing. Haily points to four players who had pretty good scoring nights against the Heels and uses just their point totals as evidence against Ginyard’s individual defense.
Brandon Wood, Valpo, 30 points: It is true Ginyard and the rest of the Tar Heels let off the gas in this game, were not focused and as a result Roy Williams chewed out Ginyard after the game. So for this one you can say Ginyard(and his teammates) did not do a great job but one game is hardly worth trashing Ginyard’s defense.
Evan Turner, OSU, 23 points: Read the rest of the stat line Josh. It also says 10 turnovers next to Turner’s name. Ginyard’s defense was so good Luke Winn, who actually watches games and you know, reads box scores, wrote about it in-depth.
Wesley Johnson, Syracuse, 25 points: Wesley Johnson is listed as a forward and is 6-7. I am not sure Ginyard was even assigned to Johnson though it is possible. I was not paying much attention to the matchups especially when I started having Kansas Game flashbacks. I do know watching the highlight video on ESPN.com Johnson scores seven points with someone else guarding him besides Ginyard. So without further evidence I am not sure you can hang Johnson’s performance on Ginyard.
Grayson Flittner, Gardner-Webb, 32 points: Yeah, I actually think Ginyard did all he could. When a player is pulling up from Efland and shooting then that is tough to defend. Also, Roy Williams said in his press conference than Flittner ended up getting open on two occasions because Ed Davis screwed up. There were other times when someone had a hand in the guy’s face and still others where he just pulled up from some ridiculous distance which is impossible to guard. Then there is the issue of Ginyard doing what a veteran defensive specialist does: rotating off his man in help defense which ends up leaving the guy open. Was that a mistake? Depending on how you look at it. Ginyard was basically doing what he has done for four years and when a team gets penetration(someone else’s fault) and Ginyard rotates over to help leaving Flittner open then pray tell what do you expect him to do?
You can say that all the points haven’t been on him, but a lot of them have. And if you’re the best defender on the team you move onto the hot hand even if he is lighting someone else up. There have been plenty of times that he has played well, but he is still not a complete player.
No, I can’t say a lot of the points have been on Ginyard because I don’t have access to the defensive grading Roy uses. In fact you know what might have been a better idea? Having someone ask Roy about Ginyard’s defense and how he has rated out against the four individuals you mentioned before going of half cocked, writing this kind of garbage in a public forum and making people dumber for having read it.
The liability that he is on offense will make it tough on the inside bigs trying to score as the season moves along. As important as guard play is in the college game, there isn’t a whole lot of room on the court for wings who can’t shoot.
Let’s see what those pesky stats say again. So far this season Ginyard is averaging 11.7 ppg, 4.2 apg, 3.3 rpg, 2.0 spg. Ginyard is also shooting 47% from three point range, 60% overall and 88% from the foul line. His points per shot is 1.56 which is 3rd best on the team behind Ed Davis and Tyler Zeller. During the two games in New York, Ginyard had excellent offensive games. Against OSU Ginyard scored 13 points and hit 3-5 three pointers. He followed that up with a 15 point performance versus Syracuse. Last night versus Gardner Webb, Ginyard scored eight points and dished out six assists which is at least 20 points he had a hand in creating. The only complaint thus far about Ginyard on the offensive end is his turnovers which is not bad enough to declare him an offensive liability.
For North Carolina to have any chance in March they will have to get more out of Ginyard on both ends of the court, because he will most certainly be out there for his leadership.
Ya think, Dinozzo? For my money I think Ginyard has played up to expectations, maybe even beyond them. He is in great physical shape, is leaner than he was at any point in career. Ginyard has shown some aggressiveness on the offensive end as well as some explosiveness going to the basket. Time will tell whether his three point shooting stays at a fairly high level though if he settles in the 40% range that is still great. Implying that he is an overrated defender and liability on offense is short sighted at best and journalistic malfeasance at worse based on the evidence. At this point I am not sure how Ginyard’s season will go but I do know there is nothing I have seen so far to make me think he is playing worse than we thought he would.
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As I mentioned on the last thread, Marcus has a good shot to become the 64th 1000-point scorer in UNC history. If I’m not mistaken, that’s pretty good…
This guy is stupid. Really? Some guys just go insane from outside and even with a hand in their face it still goes in. I think if anyone has played sports in their lifetime they’ve had a game where they just seem to make everything they do. I’ve had them, in volleyball and basketball, just not to that extent. Marcus has been playing extremely well and is doing more on offense than I’ve seen him do before. How bout you watch the games and read more of the stats before you write something as boneheaded as that. [/rant]
Easily the stupidest thing I’ve read today. And probably the rest of the week. Or month. Maybe. We’ll see.
josh haley’s comments are the stupidest thing I’ve read today.
Unless you go back through the films of those games and say something like “Turner scored 20 of his 23 points while Ginyard was guarding him, making 8-of-12 shots” this kind of piece has no validity. He wasn’t guarding Johnson in the ‘Cuse game and completely frustrated Turner for the first 35 minutes of the game. Turner did his damage when they moved him to the 3, and I don’t remember if Marcus was guarding him or not.
And how many D1 teams would turn down having Marcus in their starting five?
UNC has ALWAYS had somebody jump up and try to play giant killer. Sometimes it works, most of the time we weather the storm and find a way to win the game anyway. We remember them because it seems to happen to our guys way too often. But folks it happens to other teams just as often. There are just as many other fan bases that have their own versions of Harold Arceaneux (sp?).
Marcus is David Noel with a jump shot and better defensive skills. I’ll take that any day and twice on Sunday.
Of all the players on our team, I have no clue why Ginyard is the one that gets picked apart. If you are in the mood as a journalist to write an anti-UNC piece, why not start with #1 HS PF John Henson? I mean, there is other material.
Really gets to me though that questions surround Ginyard’s inability to play last season. I, for one, do not think for a minute that our team suffers if we played Marcus more minutes and Danny less.
Now, one could argue that the appearant need for decency at the pg position this season may have warranted his absence last year. But that is mere speculation as well. In the end, even if it were the case, its happened before, and will happen again. Not like some major ncaa violation has been made here. Then again, we are UNC, ahead of the class, and even minor sidesteps are documented. So glad to be a Tarheel fan!
What a lame analysis. At the moment, Marcus is the best player on our team, and there isn’t a close second. That is a lot more significant cause for concern than any nitpicking of Ginyard’s game.
Fankind is garbage… A half baked, low quality version of a much better blog that a certain broadcasting corporation pulled the plug on…
Obviously I haven’t seen any of the cupcake games this year (no ESPNU or radio), but most of the times when a 3-point shooter lights up the Heels, they guard him well and he goes unconscious and shoots with a hand in his face. But none of these guys have actually beaten the Heels yet.
My only concern is the Heels haven’t broken 3-digits this year. Have the cupcakes been that good? NCCSU wasn’t. These should be blowouts. If UNC doesn’t break 100 pts in their annual floor-buffing with UNCA I will be worried.
“My only concern is the Heels haven’t broken 3-digits this year. Have the cupcakes been that good? NCCSU wasn’t. These should be blowouts. If UNC doesn’t break 100 pts in their annual floor-buffing with UNCA I will be worried.”
Believe it or not, UNC has only scored 100+ against UNC-A once in the last 3 years, and I can guarantee that UNC doesn’t score 100 against them this year… they don’t play…
Scoring a 100, despite the ease with with UNC has done it the last 3 years, is still a difficult feat to accomplish in CBK. The 2006 team only did it once and I don’t expect that this team will do it too many times. That being said, they are still averaging almost 90 ppg against the cupcakes, which is pretty good offensive production.
I like the NCIS reference.
^I love that show.
I meant to mention the NCIS reference, only the best show on tv right now. You should use some every once in a while just to see if anyone catches it.
And for those of us (or maybe just me) who are NCIS-illiterate, the reference is?
NCIS is the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. The show is on CBS, 8 PM Tues night. The short version is Anthony Dinozzo is a senior agent on the major case team led by former Marine Jethro Gibbs. Gibbs is the strong silent type who practices a lot of tough love. There are times when Dinozzo states the obvious and Gibbs responds “Ya think, Dinozzo?” before barking orders at them. Read here for more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCIS_(TV_series)
Thanks!
So maybe I’m not exactly “NCIS-illiterate.” I did know what that was (as does anyone who watches any sporting event televised by CBS).
The Dinozzo bit was what I was missing.
I think Ty Lawson being cited for underage drinking (it was never DUI) had more to do with UNC winning the national championship than Marcus injuring his foot. If Ty went pro last summer, we’re probably not hoisting another banner.
Abby is HOT.
and…WHO is Josh Hailey? never heard of him. won’t be reading him.
Maryland’s losing. Bummer.
is it wrong of me to want someone to put “The Mouth” Vasquez into the basket support like one of Abby’s test .45 caliber slugs into a 2×6?
Maryland has played a zone all night long except for a little box and one for a while. I don’t think I’ve ever seen them play so much zone before.
First injury of the season: Roy had shoulder surgery today and will be in a sling for a month. Apparently he slipped back in October. He will coach on Sunday.
whoa. so much for whipping his jacket off in a ferocious manner.
anyone remember arceneaux from weber state in ‘99? flittner was arceneaux-esque. won’t amount to anything at the next level but for one night, he was amazing.
Somebody needs to take the other side here, sort of anyway.
In my opinion, Danny Green was always a better player than Marcus Ginyard. I always had the feeling that Ginyard started ahead of Green just to send a message to the other players about how important defense is. But not exciting defense, but rather staid, non quantifiable defense without spectacular plays. Bobby Frasor was rated highly on defense in the same way. Green on the other hand was making spectacular blocks and interceptions but presumably doing other things the coaching staff disliked on the defensive end.
Ginyard is from our area up here and seems like a pretty good kid, although Roy did seem sort of perturbed with him about his injury last year around the time of the Wake and C of C games. I don’t find his game to be particularly nice to watch or graceful. Well, neither was Hansbrough’s, or Moses Malone, so that is just icing on the cake for your MJ’s and the like. Ginyard is okay on offense, but erratic, sometimes really hitting from outside and sometimes not.
In many ways, Ginyard does seem like a shorter David Noel. I always did think, however, that Danny Green felt as though he was being treated a bit harshly having to sit behind Ginyard for three years and perhaps that had something to do with Green’s testing the waters in 2008. Obviously, that is not Marcus’s fault but he, to me is a bit like Derrick Phelps.
I made a comment that maybe Phelps was as good as Lawson which got shot down by most people on here, and probably rightly. But some analysts say in certain situations, mediocre offensive players like Bill Russell or Derrick Phelps can actually be more efficient for a team than a Wilt Chamberlain or Ty Lawson. Is Ginyard’s defense at that kind of Michael Jordan level? I am not sure I see it.
Defense is hard to quantify for non-centers. You could tell that Bill Russell was a great defender but with guards, sometimes they get turnovers when they are actually out of position. If the staff thinks Ginyard is a great defender, then that is good enough for me, because they are actually keeping tabs on things, such as stops, rather than blocks and interceptions which were more Green’s wont.
I think we did see that in the biggest game of Ginyard’s life, against Kansas in 2008, he was not particularly effective on the defensive end, to put it mildly. He was horrible on the offensive end.
Take a look at the Kansas-UNC box score and, if I were Danny Green, I would be upset. I think Ginyard had a Shammond Williams kind of game, but on both ends of the court.
Ginyard played many more minutes than Green and yet scored zero points, while Green notched 15 on 6-13 shooting. Ginyard had one foul and a couple of rebounds, with no turnovers or blocked shots. All the while, we were getting lit up by Mario Chambers and Brandon Rush, who went 16-27 from the field.
Green was about the only guy keeping us in the game. Had Marcus played any kind of decent game, who knows whether UNC might have made it all the way back from 40-12.
I have to say that I cannot disagree that Ginyard’s absence last year was not an overall positive because I think it is impossible for Williams not to play Ginyard heavy minutes. He just has a connection with that kind of kid, just like he did with Frasor.
Green set all kinds of UNC records last year for most games and most games won, while finishing on the 3rd team All ACC and 1st team All ACC Defense teams, strangely enough among rumblings among our own that he really wasn’t that great a defensive player.
Anyway, now is the time for Ginyard to show something. Frasor, Green and Hansbrough are gone and this is Ginyard’s team. Regardless of what one thinks he has achieved so far this year, it is now put up or shut up. I am not going to go back and look at the stats but at this point, Ginyard has not had a particularly distinguished career given the high standards at UNC. I think he is behind somewhat forgotten guys like Jeff Lebo, Steve Hale, Kevin Madden. Dudley Bradley and John Kuester.
I sincerely hope to see the kind of performances from him that merit the large numbers of minutes that he was logging in 2008.
I would like to second what William wrote, sort of. I love Marcus Ginyard and really enjoy his Twitter feed (it’s so…collegiate), but I have a sort of impression that he was tagged as a defensive stopper as a freshman and just kept that tag. Which is not to say that he doesn’t deserve it, since the coaching staff seems to agree. But in watching almost every UNC game one can watch in Chicago and LA the past four years, my admittedly untrained eye just hasn’t seen it.
The best comparison I can think of is a baseball one: Omar Vizquel in the nineties was anointed as the ne plus ultra defensive shortstop, when he was really just one of a number of good defensive shortstops. (Credit to Bill James for pointing this out.) But when the press get it in to their head to say one thing about a guy, they say it to death, as we well know.
But the Hailey article is still bull.
Like I said, Hailey would have a better article if he or someone asked Roy Williams in one of his weekly press conferences about how Ginyard rates out and asks him about the performance of opposing players against Ginyard. I think Ginyard like Frasor understands the team defensive scheme which is why Frasor got playing time when he had really nothing to offer on offense. It is difficult watching on TV to pick up good defense being played, especially off the ball which has as much bearing on a player scoring points than anything else. You also have things like screens which requires your teammates to help you.
I think Ginyard understands defense like Frasor. Frasor would do things like beat his man to the spot or see a breakdown happening and rotate into position to help. Ginyard does the same thing. Overall Ginyard moves his feet well, has good length and a nose for the ball. Of course it is hard to quantify this stuff and not many people spend a game watching one player on defense which is why you should rely on UNC’s defensive grading.
I do know the media has a penchant for hyping a player’s defense when there is evidence to the contrary. I am not convinced that is the case here but with Shelden Williams all we heard was how great a defender he was but Sean May and Tyler Hansbrough ate his lunch more than once. Williams was a shot blocker and had a nickname so I guess that means he was awesome on defense.
If Micheal Jordan was a freshman, Ginyard would start ahead of him because of the inexperience of the back court. It has become part of the Carolina system to give less talented players, who put forth great effort, significant playing time under the guise as defensive stopper. Obviously, they are doing this for educational purposes, as well as, chemistry. The greatest defensive player ever at Carolina was Dudley Bradley, followed by Bobby Jones.
Was Jordan third best at defense?
Most exciting defensive plays I remember:
1. Jones intercepting the ball at Duke with a tie score and racing for the winning basket at the buzzer in 1974.
2. Dudley Bradley picking Clyde Austin after UNC had blown a twenty point halftime lead and then dunking it in the final seconds for the win in 1978.
3. Jordan picking Rick Carlise I believe it was and dunking UNC to the lead in a huge comeback over Ralph and Co. in 1983.
4. Jordan blocking Lefty’s son’s shot which appeared to be an easy lay-up to preserve a one point win in 1983.
5. Jordan cutting off the defensive lane in the final seconds against Georgetown, making Fred Brown abort a pass into the middle and instead pass to the player to his righthand side on the court, who happened to be James Worthy.