This question was discussed a ton on the postgame thread. Now that there are 11 games in the hopper, enough to really analyze some stats and see the Heels against quality competition, we can begin wildly speculating on who Roy Williams should be playing. Because he really loves it when UNC fans do that.
We should go ahead and get the elephant in the room out of the way upfront. For reasons that only Roy knows, Will Graves continues to run out during lineup introductions instead of coming into the game as the eighth or ninth player off the bench. It was rumored back in preseason that Roy was bending over backwards to help Graves out. Graves’ weight was an issue and partially blamed on a back issue which may be a result of the weight issue. Let me know when you want to me stop that merry-go-round. Anyway, Graves’ experience and potential as a shooter earned him a spot in the starting lineup which was met by some with this fear: “If Graves is a starter now then he will be forever.” Unfortunately that is a legitimate concern given what we know about Roy Williams. Most of last season UNC fans burned numerous hours on message board advocating Deon Thompson be benched in favor of Ed Davis as a starter. When these suggestions made their way to Roy’s radio show he indicated his annoyance with fans suggesting, well anything to him,
In the case of Thompson, I was not one to dwell too much on starting him over Davis. Thompson is a good player and was then. If Roy wanted to massage his confidence by starting him over Davis then there was certainly room to do that since (1) Thompson could be effective in spots and (2) he was the fifth option on a team with three NBA first rounders and Danny Green. If Thompson disappeared no one really noticed because of the other players. In the case of Graves, there is no room to prop up his confidence or make him feel better. UNC needs the best players on the court and after 11 games it is clear Graves is not one of them. And this is not to pick on Graves, it is just that among the players UNC uses in the rotation his poor play is the most evident and persistent. Graves is shootin 34% from the floor and 33% from three. He is a poor ball handler and at times cannot even catch the simplest of passes thrown his way. At this point I find it hard to believe that David or Travis Wear would not make more sense at the SF spot than Graves unless Roy would rather not run a 6-9 player at that spot for matchup reasons.
The other option is to move Marcus Ginyard over to the three and start Dexter Strickland at the two beside Larry Drew. The hangup there is putting all your point guards on the court at the same time forcing you to rotate John Henson and Graves in to the SF anyway so you can slide Ginyard back over to the two when Strickland spells Drew at the one. Again I am not sure that works so well and it highlights UNC’s need for another quality PG on the roster, a need that will not be addressed until Kendall Marshall is on campus. The unfortunate side of that is Strickland might be the best pure scorer UNC has and possibly the only player on the roster who looks like he has the skills to take a game over if needed. If there is one major deficiency UNC has it is a scorer from the wing and when I say scorer, not just someone who can pop threes but a player who does that and can penetrate to create offense. Drew is very much the former with only flashes of creating offense on his own. That is not really detrimental since Drew is more of a facilitator as long as there are other options on the floor. Strickland could be that option but at his present rate of 14 mpg, his effectiveness will be limited.
The other two players who are getting some grief in that “these guys should play less” sort of way are Ginyard and Thompson. I am not inclined to toss either of these guys under the bus. Thompson is still the best option at the four and despite his ability to not show up at times, I think will be better than most of the big men in the ACC. Thompson will be fine and really has to be since there are not any other players to effectively play in that slot. Well, that is unless you put Tyler Zeller in at center and move Davis over which might give you something. However, if Roy is not willing to sit Thompson under the conditions of last season, then whatever chances are less than zero are the ones I would put on it happening now.
Confidence in Ginyard is obviously a little lower, mainly on the basis of the aesthetics of his game rather than the numbers. The two biggest concerns for Ginyard are FT shooting and turnovers. Ginyard is not a great offensive player in terms of being a scorer but he is an experience player and one of the better defenders on the team. Ginyard could also stand to be in control a little more which speaks to the turnovers more than anything else. I am not convinced his presence on the floor is harmful or that the tradeoff with someone else would be that big of a gain.
So to answer the original question of which players would give UNC the best chance to win? Well, in simple terms it looks like everyone but Will Graves which probably is not fair to him except it is difficult to point to other players and say without a doubt they should have their playing time reduced. It is not the case for Ginyard and Thompson, at least not enough at this point to worry about. With Graves it is an issue of what the numbers say and his potential. If he finds his three point shot it surely will help but I am not sure there is enough there to warrant him playing more than younger players such as Strickland or the Wears who are more talented and with whom the future of the program lies.
Knowing Roy, he will not make a change and if he does it will be in the rotation during the game what sees Graves play fewer minutes as opposed to other personnel. My opinion is that less of Graves and more from some combination of Strickland/Wears/even Henson offers the best opportunity to win games. It will be interesting to see to what extent Roy uses the next few games to try out some new lineups or whether the way it has been is the way it will be for the remainder of the season.
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“Knowing Roy, he will not make a change and if he does it will be in the rotation during the game what sees Graves play fewer minutes as opposed to other personnel.”
I think this is already happening.
The first 9 games Graves averaged 18.5 mpg, which was 5th on the team.
The last two games he played 12 minutes against PC (9 players played more w/ Ginyard and Strickland out of the lineup) and 12 minutes against UT (8 players played more).
So it appears that Graves, at least based on minutes, has moved pretty far down the depth chart. If that is the case, I don’t really care whether he starts or not.
If you start the game, but only play 12 minutes, and the team had the lead in the early going, is it such a big issue that you were a “starter?” With a team this young and not having that much experience playing with each other, there probably is no magic lineup, and playing time will be fluid, depending on the progress each player shows in practice. Since I don’t have the benefit of seeing that (nor the expertise to properly evaluate it if I did see it), I think I’ll be satisfied to let the coaches make those decisions.
” I think I’ll be satisfied to let the coaches make those decisions”
WHAT? How can you call yourself a blog poster? I kid, I kid.
As THF states Roy isn’t going to read what we have to say but it is apparent that the staff is tinkering with lineups. What goes on in practice and in the proverbial locker room is not visible to us and most certainly plays a role in the decision making. FWIW, I think the lineup of Thompson, Davis, Ginyard, Strickland and Drew is the best combination at any one time.
The Heels 3 losses were to the number 2,3 and 5 teams in the country and competed with all of them. Chatting about this is fun every year, but as the ol philosopher says, Trust in Roy.
As C. Michael pointed out, I wouldn’t get too hung up on who starts because Graves will not see starters minutes going forward unless he is having one of those nights where he is hitting everything he throws up from beyond the arc. And that might be the reason Roy continues to start Graves, in order to keep him engaged and motivated to see what he’ll get from him on a game by game basis.
Basically, this team will only go as far as Marcus Ginyard and Deon Thompson take it. I’ve been very disappointed with the senior leadership to this point. How many times do we have to hear from the “Senior Leaders” that they didn’t have the same level of focus and effort as their opponent before one of these so called “leaders” does something about it?
New Year Wish List for the North Carolina Seniors:
1) For Deon Thompson to show up for the big games just like he does for the mid-majors, and to stop disappearing in games once he misses his first couple of shots. Deon is too important to this year’s team to get down on himself and disappear in ball games like he has done in past years
2) For Marcus Ginyard to show up as a defensive stopper at some point this season. Ginyard has been awful defensively and I don’t know if it is a head thing or a physical thing, but he is no where near the defender he was 2 seasons ago. Currently this year’s team’s perimeter defense is even worse than the perimeter defense played by last year’s team during the regular season. Funny what a “reputation” will do for you considering no one is talking about how poor Marcus has been defensively because right now I’ll take Wayne Ellington or Danny Green defending the perimeter over Marcus Ginyard. This team supposedly had the potential to be a great defensive team, but currently they look like ushers in a movie theater escorting ball handlers to their seats hoping for a blocked shot to save the day.
3) LEADERSHIP, for a lack of effort to be continually used as an excuse means that their is not a single player on this team that everyone fears in the locker room. One of these seniors needs to step forward and not only show with their own effort, but become the type of leader that everyone else on the team is afraid to look in the eye if they did not give 110% on the basketball court.
One thing that should be considered is +/-/game. We’ve tallied UNC’s +/- numbers for 8 of their 11 games.
http://www.scacchoops.com/TempoBasedStats.asp?sTeam=NC&Season=#
It’s interesting that the 5 that are clearly at the top of the list are the 5 original starters that Roy played to start the season.
More interesting is that John Henson’s and Tyler Zeller’s impact has been minimal in terms of +/- this season.
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/249060.html
Matt Doherty makes his peace.
I would like to see Zeller play defense with his hands up. There was one defensive play, in particular, that he leaned in with his chest and kept his hands low and behind his back… I don’t understand that at all. At 7 ft, why not make yourself even taller?
We’ve seen Deon and Ginyard for three and a-half years now and have a pretty good fix on who they are and what they can do.
Deon is a productive player with a nice and pretty reliable shot. He gets his share of rebounds but is no match for stronger players. And he does tend to disappear.
Ginyard is a utility man. His forte is said to be defense, but he’s overrated. He is also said to be a team leader, but right now it seems that Danny Green’s dances did more to get the team going — not to mention Green’s offensive explosiveness and athleticism, which Ginyard lacks.
Last year’s team had surely three and maybe four NBA calibre players. This year’s has maybe one (Davis). It’s not just that the team is younger, although that’s part of the problem. It’s that the talent level is down.
That said, we can put on the floor a starting five as good as anyone in the ACC: Drew, Strickland, Wear, Thompson and Davis. Coming off the bench we’d have Zeller, Ginyard and Wear2.
Henson is going to have to learn to play basketball before he can get minutes in league games. I think the thing to do with him is for Roy to give him plenty of PT in these upcoming four cupcake games, and tell him that nothing is expected from him on offense (take a dunk or a wide open shot, that’s it), but that he should be a menace on defense and particularly as a shot blocker. The idea is to get Henson more comfortable out there, by taking off the pressure and letting him do something he knows he can do (block shots). That, I hope, will be the start of bringing him along. It’s going to be a long road, longer than this season. But it’s a road worth travelling.
I think we need to understand that there’s a limit on how far coaching, practice and “leadership” can take this team. We just don’t have the strength, toughness or team quickness to beat a truly top team. So let’s give the time to the players who have been producing, and those who, while not producing up to potential, still have the promise to be major contributors if they can learn what they doing that holds them back (e.g., Zeller and his lack of anticipation on defense).
I would still advocate starting Zeller instead of Deon for one simple reason: We don’t know what Zeller’s potential is, but we do know what Deon’s ceiling is. Thompson dissappears when matched up against other players who are the same size as him. We know this. We have seen it for the previous 3 years. If that tendancy hasn’t corrected itself by now (and it hasn’t) its not going to – thats just who he is. So, lets see what somebody else can do.
* Ginyard was NEVER and NEVER will the answer on offense. Any points he produces have always been “icing on the cake”
* Drew is getting better and better, but still makes freshman type mistakes
* Henson is just not going to make a big impact this year, although I’ve been hopeful at times
* Strickland and the Wears are playing well if you ask me
* Graves, well, I just don’t get it.
* Zeller is progressing well on the offense but he is still a defensive liabilty
* Davis and Deon certainly could be more aggressive at times, but our perimeter game MUST improve for them to be 100% effective.
“We just don’t have the strength, toughness or team quickness to beat a truly top team.”
I disagree, Carolina has already played 4 of the best teams in the country and I did not see any disparity in talent. What I did see in the 1-3 record against the top teams in the country was alot of inconsistency that lead to huge runs that the decided those games (1 run in Carolina’s favor and the other 3 against).
Continuing the development of the younger players well help curb some of the inconsistency, but what this team is missing is a leader that takes control of the team and the game when things get a little bumpy. That does not necessarily have to mean scoring, but it needs to be a calming effect that stops an opponents run (e.g. a great defensive play, key offensive rebound, etc.), and it currently doesn’t appear that the seniors are going to be those type of players. Therefore, I hope that DrewII can step up and be that type of player, and I would like to start seeing him be more aggressive. DrewII was much more aggressive in the MSU win than he was in the Syracuse, Kentucky, and Texas losses and his performances suffered due to a lack of aggressiveness in those losses
“Carolina has already played 4 of the best teams in the country and I did not see any disparity in talent.”
Don’t overlook Ohio State, either. They were a legit T15 team before Evan Turner got hurt, and still look to be a T25 without him.
I agree with the thought that LDII should become more aggressive. He has shown a really nice pull-up jumper/runner when he drives the center of the lane. If he would do that more, not only would it provide more offense, but it would also pull defenders off of Deon and Ed, increasing shot and OReb opportunities for both of them.
I think those of us who remember the Arizona game from 2007 always have expected more from Deon. I remember thinking that losing Wright might not be a big deal because I expected Deon to perform at a level close to that of Wright in 2007.
I think Deon is a great kid but time is short and I think he really needs to show us some more if he doesn’t want to be remembered as a mild disappointment in terms of achievement, although certainly not in the way he has represented the school. But maybe I am wrong, maybe he simply is all he ever was meant to be.
By the way, I think they obviously would have won the title in 2008, had Wright stayed, meaning Lawson and perhaps Ellington would have left a year earlier, so it may have been a wash in the end, but I still think Wright would have been far better off with two or three years at the college level. Maybe that is something for Henson to think about if he is brought about slowly.
I don’t know what to say about Ginyard. He has had the chance to show that he really did deserve the start over Danny back in 2008 and I think he is making the opposite case, although that team had more scoring, so maybe he was relatively more important back then.
I think it is still too early for the +/- analysis to show much of anything unless they are going to break it down for the five real games we have had. Like some others, I would like to have seen more games against, say, St. John’s or Vanderbilt caliber teams. UNC always seems to play either top ten or bottom rung teams in the early going. Most years it doesn’t matter much, but this year, it certainly adds some mystery to just what our achievement level is.
I also understand the notion of Roy staying with the “system” which generally means starting seniors if they are in the ballpark of deserving to start. I am not sure Graves merits as much consideration given his history but running the system does ensure longterm success.
In past years, UNC had a Felton, May, McCants, Hansbrough, Wright, Lawson, Ellington, and Green (even a Wes Miller) who all wanted to take the shot at critical junctures. None of these current guys seem to want the ball when it really matters. In the UK and UT games when UNC had the ball and a chance to really even up the games, no one stepped up.
Somebody has to.
“I would still advocate starting Zeller instead of Deon for one simple reason: We don’t know what Zeller’s potential is, but we do know what Deon’s ceiling is.”
Zeller is too poor of a defensive player to make this a viable solution that would offset any chemistry impacts. Plus, Deon is still a pretty damn good player; it would just be nice to solve the disappearing acts. I don’t get all the “start Zeller” logic, yes Zeller is very skilled offensively, but I’d argue he gives up a basket on the other end for everyone he scores with his weak defensive rebounding, poor positioning, and bad footwork.
As an aside, I have the new Art Chansky book and it has some really interesting stuff on Frank McGuire and an interesting beginning with the top ten “What if’s” of Carolina basketball.
The first one is, what if Frank’s son, Frankie McGuire had not had a chronic illness which required the McGuires to leave New York.
I mention it, after reading the Doherty article and wondering, “what if Sean May hadn’t broken his foot and UNC had gone 22-13 and made the NCAA’s in 2003″?
Let’s see… Coach Williams is a HOF coach with two national championships. How many commenters here know the game and his people well enough to second-guess him? I can kind of see why he gets a little upset about that.
Talk about how things can change. Not only are the Heels off the air in dadgum Roy frickin’ Williams home town now, but last night’s ACC opener with State and WF was preempted by the hapless Panthers. (How did the awful Panthers manage to schedule a night game on one of the few weekends State will play a late game? I hope the Panthers will lose out the season, call it quits, and stop preempting sports people care about.) Last year, I was listening to every Heels game on the radio all the way into late March/early April.
Why doesn’t dadgum Roy frickin’ Williams quit pouring money into the black hole of UNCA basketball (have you ever heard their radio announcer’s nasal voice? ugh!) and buy a dadgum frickin’ radio station that can carry his own team’s broadcast?
While I’ve been guilty of this, I’m surprised people want to throw Deon under the bus. Let’s not forget how great he played in the title game a little less than 9 months ago. I think he’s feeling the effects of more defensive focus on him and the weight of expectations. Last year, if we got 10 ppg out of him, we were in a great spot. If we get that now, we’re hurting.
Marcus needs to figure out his role on this team. He tried to do too much offensively at times and that’s not his strength. You can see, at times, when we need a hoop he knows it and forces things that rarely end up working. When we need a hoop, we need to slow down, reverse the ball a couple of times and get touches inside for Ed/Deon/Tyler.
LD is still learning. He looks great at times (MSU) and not so much at other times (SU, UT). He can’t be aggressive all the time–he needs to learn when to pick his spots and what those look like. He also has to understand with this team that sometimes slowing it down and making sure we get that ball reversal/post touches is of the utmost importance.
Myself, I don’t care of Graves starts or not. It might be better to bring Strickland and the Wears off the bench yet give them way more minutes than Graves.
“We just don’t have the strength, toughness or team quickness to beat a truly top team.”-rath
“I disagree, Carolina has already played 4 of the best teams in the country and I did not see any disparity in talent.”-scl11
The point appears to be a non-sequitur.
With the possible exception of toughness, I do not see strength, toughness and team quickness as equating “talent.” To me, talent is inherent. Strength is physical and can be acquired. Toughness is a mental attitude and innate, or perhaps MAY be learned. Team quickness is just that: team. And as others have pointed out, this group does not move consistently as a team either on offense or defense. Hopefully, that will improve (greatly) with experience playing together.
Individual quickness is talent, I think. And there is not, apparently, a heap o’ that with this team. Texas was consistently quicker to the ball, something that perhaps some see as “intensity.” Henson, Strick, Ginyard and sometimes Drew appear to me to display the greatest quickness among this group.
Haven’t seen enough of McDonald to tell.
Anyway, in my observation to date, I agree with rath’s assessment. So on the subject of which players give us the best chance to win, I’ll demur. We’re in for a limited year, doods, whichever combination rises. One thing I read as agreed to by all: there is room for improvement all around – and most express faith that it will evolve.
Just please beat Dook at least once. (I am totally impressed with their D.)
I thought we all promised to try not to make any more comments like that, TheUNCFan.
Once again, sports die when that sentiment prevails.
I guess Bill Belichik (Chapel Hill born) can do anything he wants because he won 3 Super Bowls.
I guess Casey Stengel and Joe Torre were above reproach because they won multiple titles with the Yankees(funny how neither won any World Series with the the Braves or Mets).
Both Stengel and Torre essentially ended up being retired involuntarily by the Yankees, who went on to win World Series without them shortly thereafter.
John Wooden, who won 9 titles in 11 years, and who beat NC State by close to 20 earlier that season, and who led NC State by 11 in the second half and by 7 in the second overtime, ended up losing to the Wolfpack in the 1974 Final Four. Can’t criticize that coaching down the stretch, I guess?
Norm Sloan won 57 out of 58 games in the 70′s, and beat UNC 9 times in a row. Can’t criticize anything he did in 1975 when State started out ranked number one but didn’t make the NCAA tourney, even with the addition of Kenny Carr?
I haven’t heard him compare recently, but Roy readily admitted that he failed to win an NCAA title with the best Kansas team he ever had, back in 1997. He also failed to win a title with his 2008 UNC team which was essentially identical (swap Stepheson for Davis and Thomas for Drew) to the 2009 squad. Can’t criticize him for his team going down 40-12 to Kansas?
You know who you can’t criticize? Anson Dorrance and …. Anson Dorrance.
Please no more of these comments.
We all know Roy is a HOF’er and among the top coaches of the past 50 years, as a package. What we don’t know is if his success is based more upon system, recruiting, game coaching, or general inspiration, not to mention the possibility of a bit of luck. Like anyone, he has his prejudices, blindspots and lapses. Yes, he deserves the benefit of the doubt, which he obviously got in a certain respect in regard to his last couple of controversies, but respectful critiques of his starting line-ups and scheme are well within bounds of propriety, even for Tar Heel fans.
scl11 –
“Carolina has already played 4 of the best teams in the country and I did not see any disparity in talent.”
Then I must have been watching different games. Syracuse was quicker, Texas was tougher (did you see any of the rebounding?), and Kentucky was both quicker (Wall) and tougher (Patterson).
I don’t think there’s even an arguable case that we have quality on a par with, say, the top five. Our interior players have talent but lack muscle and our guards are average to somewhat better-than-average. Drew shows flashes, and those rare times when he scores, we are a different and more formidable team. But it doesn’t happen nearly often enough. Ginyard is a fifth-year senior, and plays no better now than he did three years ago. His offense is slightly better but his defense, always overrated, is slightly worse. And he still makes freshman mistakes.
Davis has a chance to be a second team All America, but that will be it as far as post-season accolades.
This is not a knock on the team. It has won the games it should have, and lost the games it should have. The good news is that we’re as good as anyone in the ACC and will wind up winning at least twice as many games as we lose. The bad news is that we don’t have what it takes to be a national contender this year, as the one-sided losses to Syracuse and Texas illustrate. Those games were not flukes; they reflected the actual disparity in talent between the teams.
I will say that the losses to UK and to Texas were on the road and the loss to Syracuse was essentially on the road. Can UNC improve more than those 3 teams? I don’t think that is beyond the realm of possibility, but then again, Kansas might be hands down better than any of those teams anyway.
Our 2000 team was no great shakes and somehow made it to the Final Four, so, I won’t go as far as Rathskellar in terms of ultimate success, although I think I have presented a pretty good case that this year’s recruiting class simply pales besides the similarly ranked ones from 2003 and 2007 in terms of instant firepower.
We can only hope that like the 2006 class, it improves over time, although much of that 2006 improvement came from Danny alone. Hopefully, the Wears, Stewart, Strickland and Henson can all improve the way Green did; then we will really have something.
I am much more discourage about the ugly, ugly play and lack of fundamentals, than I am about the results.
“Just please beat Dook at least once. (I am totally impressed with their D.)”
It’s December, everyone is impressed with Duke.
“Then I must have been watching different games. Syracuse was quicker, Texas was tougher (did you see any of the rebounding?), and Kentucky was both quicker (Wall) and tougher (Patterson).”
Evidently, because I saw talent that was on par with all three of those teams and if not for UGLY runs in each of those games due to inconsistent play the outcome of those games could have been the other side of the Win/Loss column. Yes, Wall (Kentucky) and Johnson (Syracuse) had athletic talent and quickness that is not representative of the current Carolina roster, but as a whole there was not a great level of disparity between the talent levels of those teams vs. Carolina’s talent. Additionally, all of those games were basically road games in November and December, and from what I’ve seen if Carolina continues to improve and develop I don’t see there being a talent gap that would prevent Carolina from beating any of those teams in March. Also, each of those games represented the best basketball that Syracuse, Kentucky, and Texas has played this season, I would like to have seen the Carolina team that played the 1st half against Michigan State vs. that same level of competition.
“I am much more discourage about the ugly, ugly play and lack of fundamentals, than I am about the results.”
william, I agree, and I think this is derived from a lack of focus and attention to detail, which I think is more of the current issue than a talent disparity vs. the top teams in the country. If this team can correct some of this inconsistent play with better focus and attention to detail then I believe we will stop seeing some of this “ugly” play for large stretches of games against quality competition.
“I mention it, after reading the Doherty article and wondering, “what if Sean May hadn’t broken his foot and UNC had gone 22-13 and made the NCAA’s in 2003??”
I think the bigger “what if,” with regard to Doherty would be, “what if Forte listened to the experts and stayed in school another year?”
With Forte in the lineup, there is no way the 2001-02 team goes 8-20. IMO, it is the 8-20 season that really doomed Doherty.
I think that had May stayed healthy and UNC won 20+/made the NCAAT UNC still would have removed him, though they would probably have to admit that the avoidance of a mass exodus of players had more to do with it than they currently do.
“Coach Williams is a HOF coach with two national championships. How many commenters here know the game and his people well enough to second-guess him?”
Probably none. We don’t see the practices. We don’t know the players. We aren’t (well, I am not) trained basketball coaches.
But in some ways that is besides the point. Like william mentioned, part of what makes being a sports fan so much fun (and why we come here) is to engage in these types of discussions. We’ve all watched the games, and we’ve all developed opinions based on what we have seen. As is evidenced by this thread alone, these opinions can vary widely and discussing them can be both entertaining and enlightening.
At the end of the day, regardless of what we say, Roy is still going to do what he wants, and 80-85% of the time it is going to work out pretty damn well! But I see no reason why we shouldn’t continue the discussion, so long as we continue to remember that our opinions are based on incomplete data sets.
I give a lot of credit to you fellows who can distinguish between Wear 1 and Wear 2. (They sound like characters from an Xmas special).
I think it would be wise if one of them went with the short haircut and one with a longer cut, simply to distinguish themselves or even if Roy put their first names on their jerseys. It almost seems spookily enough as though they are only one guy, especially given the depth of rotation that Williams uses.
I am not sure how those twins from Stanford have done in the pro’s but I think it was easier to tell them apart. At some point, I would think that each of the Wear’s would want to make sure he is getting credit for his own play and accomplishments, at least in terms of thinking about a career in Europe or the NBA.
“I am not sure how those twins from Stanford have done in the pro’s but I think it was easier to tell them apart.”
Which ones?
Jason/Jaron Collins are virtually indistinguishable in both appearance and lack of success in the NBA.
Brook/Robin Lopez are much easier to distinguish on both counts. Robin looks like Sideshow Bob and is a bit player for the Suns. Robin is clean cut and appears to be a star in the making, averaging nearly 20/10 for the Nets.
As for the Wears, I can’t tell them apart physically, but their games are pretty different; David plays much more on the perimeter. It also helps that he wears #34, which I still associate with David Noel.
FYI, UNC remains at #10 in both polls. MSU is #9 which seems a little odd to me.
great point CM, we have to all know to take each other’s opinions for what they are, and we as tar heel fans have to be proud that we’re able to make educated intelligent assertions and we’re all civil about it to boot.
that being said, i firmly believe we could have won the UK, UT and Syracuse games based on talent. We have a high ceiling, and were probably the least experienced of all teams both in college game experience adn playing together. I’m not saying we are hands down better, but neutral court, in march, i’m not scared of anyone (maybe Kansas but not those three aforementioned squads).
Ginyard sat out an entire year, DT is getting used to his new “primary scorer role”, Ed and Zell and LD are getting used to playing big time minutes, Graves is graves and the rest are frosh. This is SO different from a Texas whose players had similar roles last year, and have had time to work out chemistry, addressing how teams defend them, etc…
i’m all for not viewing the heels through rose tinted glasses, so maybe i’m far too optimistic. While these crop of freshmen aren’t a class of 2003 or 2007, i think they are a good group of kids who in conjunction w/ the sophomore class and Deon, will make formidable foes come season’s end.
I’m planning on going to the Final Four in Indy, okay i said it
Off-topic, but here is an interesting article on Tyler:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/mark_montieth/12/18/hansbrough.ap/index.html
The highlights:
-Tyler’s style of play is rubbing people the wrong way. No surprise.
-Tyler may set a record for having his own shot blocked. No surprise.
-Tyler is more athletic than people realize. Finally!
-Larry Bird LOVES Tyler.
“Bird sees Hansbrough as someone who eventually will average 15-20 points a game, get more than his share of rebounds, disrupt on defense, lift the practice and game intensity of his teammates, draw fouls and aggravate opponents to no end.
‘All along, people have been saying he can’t do this, or he can’t do that,’ Bird said. ‘I’ve seen him do it.’”
For identification purposes, it has been suggested that the Twins’ names be put on their jerseys. Is it easier to read “David” in smaller letters than the big “34,” or “Travis” than “43?” I don’t think so. It’s easy enough to learn that “D is three” and “T is four three.” Really, a few rhyme times and it’s learned. Repeat with me:
D is 3.
T is 4-3.
D is 3.
T is 4-3
D is 3.
T is 4-3.
Hope that helps. Once learned, it’ll be easy recognition…if the camera angle shows the jersey number!
Now, let’s see, what is it that “T” stands for? Tyler? I have a harder time with that, no kidding… and not proudly…
Hey Russfuss, that is from the Jerry Lucas school of mnemonics!
I read his book and I still remember the Portuguese word for clams. Of course they had to be mirror images in numbers….
I was thinking of the Lopez twins from Stanford, so thanks, C. Michael, and I could tell them apart, but Sideshow Bob is a big help, lol. Apparently, they were not identical or fraternal but the third kind of twin which is closer to identical than fraternal but has some small differences.
BTW–Class of 2010: Wayne Ellington, Ty Lawson, Brandon Wright, Deon Thompson, Alex Stepheson and Will Graves–is this the most talented class in UNC history coming in?
C.Michael –
“Can’t” is the last word in the English language to apply to Tyler Hansbrough.
There is no such thing as a sure bet, but if there were, he’d be it.
oh my, how funny were these parts?:
What’s consistent is the zombie-like intensity that must seem eerie to opponents. When Wallace and Jackson were shouting and gesticulating after encountering his elbows on Wednesday, he didn’t say a word. Didn’t even flinch. Just stared off into space, showing all the concern of a man standing in line at the checkout counter.
The downside of Hansbrough’s automaton intensity? Rookie hazing is no fun for his teammates. He goes about the usual chores of bringing newspapers and donuts, but the trash talk has no impact. And why anger someone who’s so eager to dish out punishment in practice?
Even the three former Duke players — Dunleavy, Josh McRoberts and Dahntay Jones — have given up.
“He doesn’t take crap from anybody, so we’d be wasting our breath,” Dunleavy said.
william,
All things considered, it is hard to argue argue against the Class of 2010.
2006 (RSCI Ranks: 3. Felton, 4. McCants, 9. May) and 2010 (3. Wright, 5. Lawson, 8. Ellington) are the only classes to have 3 T10 recruits, but Stepheson (39), Thompson (43), and Graves (79) are much better than Noel, Sanders, and Grant (all unranked).
The classes of 1994 (Montross, Rozier, Phelps, Reese), 1997 (Wallace, Stackhouse, McInnis, Zwicker) and 2013 (Henson, Strickland, Wear, Wear) all had 4 McD All-Americans, but that is not the best measure of a classes talent level.
State’s Smith suspended a game for criticizing officials.
one of whom was Hess.
shouldnt that reduce the suspension to a half?
To add to the Hansbrough talk, I’ve got the NBA package and Tyler is already getting crunch time minutes for Indiana and he’s being productive. Tonight he’s playing some center and having definite impact on the game late in a tight one.
100% agreed, Rath.
C. Michael:
Thanks for mentioning the Hansbrough SI story.
How can you not love the guy?
He missed a huge amount of time early in the year, and he is just starting to make up for it. You may not agree with everything someone like Larry Bird has to say, but he is observing Hansbrough and finds it to his liking.
I think that when Hansbrough has his outside shooting in better shape he will be much more effective as a scorer. He had quite a few shots blocked in college, but he kept coming back for more.
I think he will learn.
I wish the current UNC big guys had learned more from him.
Go Tyler!
That was pretty fast turnaround, C. Michael. It seems like we had some pretty good classes from about 1983 to 1987, too, but one of those had Curtis Hunter and he was supposed to be better than Jordan but never really grew much physically or as a player at UNC.
I had kind of forgotten about the class of 1997, maybe because three of them left early, but Wallace, Stackhouse, Mcinnis and Serge all ended up being famous Tar Heels in one way or another. Serge made the most of his god-given ability and was always a favorite. Too bad we didn’t have him in 1998.
The class of 1997 also had immediate impact, mostly from brawling with the class of 1994, unfortunately….
I think for those of us who never actually saw any of the current freshmen in high school, this probably helps explain some of the disappointment. I honestly thought at least one of our freshmen would have a freshman year akin to McCants, or Hansbrough or Wright or Wallace. It probably is not going to happen….
Yo, you statisticians, how about ’57? Do Rosenbluth, Laresse, Quigg, and Brennen make the cut? Or maybe they were not recruited from the same class.
I remember listening to the KU game on the radio. Not that I was old enough to understand what it meant, mind you…
Didn’t the naysayers say that Hansbrough wasn’t going to be able to dish out the punishment in the NBA that he did in college? Didn’t they say that he’d never match up physically to the “tough” inside players in the NBA? And now we have some NBA players saying he’s too rough? Figures.
I could see college players maybe complaining about his rough play, since those guys were playing for free. But NBA players get paid crazy money and they are crying like a bunch of babies. Give me a break. I hope Tyler breaks some noses. And speaking of that, he’s been busted in the face and beaten up many times, but how much crying did he ever do? I wish the average NBA player had half of Tyler’s attitude towards playing and maybe I’d watch the NBA. What a bunch of pansies.
in the article..
Mark Madsen, who played nine seasons.
NINE.
NINE!!
but Tyler wont last?
only because of an injury will he not play 10-15 years.
like i have been saying for two years. Eduardo Najera.
Hansbrough played his position at UNC. He never played to hurt anyone. He took plenty of abuse though.
If he can learn the pro game, which will require him to shoot differently, he will be successful.
I can tell that other players, media and others taking him lightly is really motivating. Standby!
He missed preseason and lots of early games. He is also very limited in time now. He doesn’t like being on the bench.
UGH!!
Calipari takes a jab at US during his postgame speech to the crowd tonight?? Why are you thinking about us, douchebag?
wait til those wins are vacated.
william & russfuss,
It’s hard to accurately judge classes before 1990 (1998 and up is easy; 1990-1997 is doable with some extra grunt work) do to the dearth of recruiting rankings. For the HS classes after 1977, you can look at McD All-Americans (1986 also had 4: Bucknall, Chilcutt, Ried, Williams), but before that it really comes down to performance on the court. Given UNC’s tradition of excellence, it is safe to say they have had a lot of very good recruiting classes.
One other thing that sets the 2010 class apart, IMO, is the fact that it was a very talented 6-man class. Prior to the age of early entries, 6-man classes weren’t done or necessary because teams didn’t suffer mass exoduses.
Tyler’s toughness and physical dominance is what we miss the most this year. No way we get out rebounded by 19 if he was still here. I realize this is nebulous but that’s what I was thinking while we were getting our butts kicked Saturday. I also have not forgotton that Barnes and Texas folded-up like a deck of cards for Dook in Greensboro last year in the tournament! We’ll have other great players at UNC but we’ll never see the likes of this young man again. How special it was to have him for four years!
Brennan and Rosenbluth were a year apart, I believe. Rosenbluth was originally supposed to go to NCSU but then Everett Case reneged on his scholarship. Rosenbluth then went for a year to prepatory school before matriculating.
“Brennan and Rosenbluth were a year apart, I believe.”
Yes, Pete was a sophomore and Lenny a junior when I was a freshman. I played in a poker game with Lenny in Winston the night before they flew to Kansas.
I also still have the ’57 yearbook.
Travis is the one with the mean streak.
Speaking of Carolina family redemption, does anyone know what’s the deal with Bob Lewis?
The line-up I’d like to see (it’ll never happen) goes along with the defensive look I’d like to see (employed on occasion).
LD, Strick & Henson with Henson up top in the center of a 3-2 zone, with Davis & Thompson down low.